Monday, March 8, 2010

The Third Way of Syllabic Verse

The Third Way of Syllabic Verse

There is an online poetic community called “Eratosphere”. You can go there, post a poem, and have it critiqued by some high-powered, knowledgeable, poets. I’ve seen A. E. Stallings, for example, participate. You can find the Eratosphere Forums here: http://www.ablemuse.com/erato/

The Forums at Eratosphere are divided into “Metrical” and “Non-Metrical”. Note that Free Verse and Syllabic poetry are put in the same forum while Metrical poetry has its own forum. I find this interesting.

Syllabic poetry is new to the English speaking culture. It is the smallest of the three main approaches to contemporary poetry. The largest, and historically the most significant, is the Accentual/Syllabic, or what Eratosphere refers to as Metric. It is the poetry of iambic pentameter. It is the approach that has been used for centuries, it is how Shakespeare, Wordsworth and Frost wrote. Easily 70% of English poetry is of this type.

The second great stream of English poetry is Free Verse. Most people think of Free Verse as new or modern. Strictly speaking, though, that is not true. The oldest collection of Free Verse in English culture is the King James rendering of the Psalms; these have influenced many poets since they were first published. In spite of this, it is true that in the early twentieth century Free Verse became a self-conscious movement, with a dedicated program, and became an approach to poetry that large numbers of poets adopted.

For the purposes of this essay, the distinction between Free Verse and Metrical Verse is that Free Verse lacks a regulated line. By regulated line I mean that in Free Verse the line of the poem is not controlled by counting. In Metrical Verse the line of the poem is regulated by counting the accents, stresses, and/or the number of syllables. In the context of this essay the “Free” of “Free Verse” means a type of poetry that is free of the constraints of counting.

The third type of poetry in English culture is Syllabic Verse. Syllabic Verse is the dominant form of poetry in such cultures as France, China, and Japan. It is not surprising that these cultures have exerted a strong influence on the development of Syllabic Verse in English.

Briefly, Syllabic Verse is that type of poetry that regulates the line of the poem by counting the number of syllables in the line. Whereas Metrical Poetry counts stresses, Syllabic Poetry counts syllables only; stresses are not taken into consideration in the regulation of the line.

Syllabic English Verse is new; I would date it to the early twentieth century and specifically the work of Adelaide Crapsey. She is the first English speaking poet that I know of to suggest a strictly syllabic poetic form; the Cinquain, a five line form with a syllabic count of 2-4-6-8-2.

From a Metrical Verse point of view both Free Verse and Syllabic Verse are non-metrical because neither uses stresses, or poetic feet, to regulate the poetic line. Hence Eratosphere, whose founders seem to be metrical poets, put them in the same forum while placing Metrical Poetry in its own forum.

From a Free Verse point of view both Metrical Verse and Syllabic Verse are non-Free because both of them regulate their lines of poetry by counting, in contrast to Free Verse where the poetic line is unregulated and uncounted. From a Free Verse point of view it would make sense to place Metrical and Syllabic Verse in a shared forum, while having a separate forum for Free Verse.

It all depends on your starting point, where you stand determines how you are going to group these various approaches.

As I said, Syllabic Verse in English is new and in some ways it is still untested third way. I think it is fruitful to explore why a Syllabic approach to poetry would emerge in English culture at this time.

First, I think one reason is that English has become a world language. When English was confined to the British Isles, its accentual nature was clear to everyone and contrasted with languages, such as French, which were non-accentual in nature. But the emergence of English as a world language means that there is greater variance in how English is pronounced and that has implications for how a poet goes about constructing a poetic line in regulated verse.

Here is an example. In the U.S. the word “brochure” is accented on the second syllable – broCHURE. I was watching a British spy series once and a woman in the episode pointed out a BROchure – accent on the first syllable. An Australian friend of mine confirmed that in Australia broCHURES are BROchures. There are many examples like this.

The point here is that the metrical poet can no longer depend on readers placing a stress on the same syllable that the poet intends or that is common among the dialect the poet finds natural. As my Australian friend put it, “It’s safer to count syllables.” It is safer to count syllables because even though different English speaking dialects will stress a word like “brochure” differently, they both agree that the word has two syllables; so that syllable count is the same in Britain, the U.S., and Australia.

In modern metrical prosody that I have read this difficulty is ignored, as if it has no significance. But I think it is a problem for metrical approaches to English verse that can undermine a poet’s metrical efforts. For example, if a metrical poet is writing iambic lines, and they want the word “brochure” to instantiate an iambic pattern, not all speakers of English will read it that way. Some will read/hear it iambically and some will not. This undermines the basis for metrical construction.

There are today large communities of English speakers for whom English is a significant second language, or whose native language strongly permeates the manner in which their English is pronounced. In India alone there are millions of English speakers; the patterns of the native Hindi, or other language from the sub-continent, affect how their English is pronounced, stressed, and patterned. The same is true of a country like South Africa.

Another difficulty is that the metrical approach oversimplifies the stress patterns of English. Basically metrical verse divides syllables into stressed and unstressed. But the actual patterns of English are far more complex; there is a whole range of stresses from very strong to lightly touched. In addition there are patterns of elongation and diminution (where a vowel, for example, is drawn out, or clipped). These stress patterns are affected by the words surrounding a given word, by the emotional context when the word is spoken, by the dialect and region. It simply isn’t true that the syllabic nature of English can be reduced to just these two.

This observation has been met by some metrical poets by creating complex patterns of semi-stresses. Timothy Steele, the most articulate contemporary spokesman for metrical verse, uses these kinds of schemes in his book “All the Fun’s in How You Say a Thing” (highly recommended). Though Steele’s presentation is nuanced and articulate, I find myself ultimately not convinced. I’m not convinced that the intermediary stress patterns actually constitute stress patterns that map onto classical poetic feet. Rather, it seems to me, that there are a wide variety of patterns which cannot be collapsed into the two categories of “stressed” and “unstressed”. An example is the phrase, often spoken by mothers, “Johnny, come in now.” It is in two beats, but the rhythm is jazzy, syncopated, and it is a rhythm that I have observed in numerous other contexts for five syllable statements. I don’t think it can be conflated to a simple stressed/unstressed pattern.

For the syllabic poet all these considerations are simply laid aside. The syllabic poet, by opting to count syllables instead of stresses and poetic feet, simply allows the variant stress patterns their free reign. The syllabic poet expects different stress patterns and therefore different pattern readings to be superimposed on the syllabic line. In reading a syllabic line the syllabic poet might alter the stress pattern deliberately at different readings in order to bring out different emotional nuances.

I think there is a third reason for the slow emergence of syllabic poetry in the English speaking world. This is speculative, but I have the feeling that the English language is undergoing a profound change. Because we are embedded in this transition it is difficult for us to hear it. But my suggestion is that the English language is becoming “flattened out”. I mean by “flattened out” that the dialects of English that are most strongly stressed are either disappearing or are being marginalized. Part of this is the influence of mass communication. Television tends to offer a type of English that is, relatively speaking, lacking in dramatic stress patterns. I think the idea behind this is that a relatively unstressed type of English can be understood by a broader audience than a dramatically stressed dialect, such as Scottish.

An additional factor, alluded to above, is the emergence of large communities of English speakers whose native languages are not strongly stressed. These communities have tended to carry that pattern of pronunciation into their English, creating an English which, compared to some English dialects, is only lightly stressed. I believe this has had an influence in what I refer to as a “flattened out” English.

I suspect that some early twentieth century English poets were intuitively aware of this shift in how English is spoken. Poets such as Adelaide Crapsey, Elizabeth Daryush, Richard Wright, Dylan Thomas, Thom Gunn, and others, all of whom wrote significant syllabic verse, intuited, I think, that English is ready for this approach.

Syllabic Verse is a third way for English poetry and still somewhat unsure of itself. It is neither Metrical Verse nor Free Verse. In my opinion, the early results of English Syllabic verse are indicative of great potential.

16 comments:

Editor said...

I've analyzed Timothy Steele's scansion method on my Poem Tree site, and it is nearly impossible to use.

Saying that English is becoming a syllabic language instead of an accentual language doesn't really work if you don't speak it that way. As an American, I generally write my poetry for Americans, and perhaps Brits; but I don't worry about people for whom English is a second language. And the likelihood is that 98% of the words in Australian English are pronounced in the same way as in the U.S., so there shouldn't be too much of a problem there.

The problem with switching to syllabic poetry is that it can sound like anything. Without the alternating stresses common to English, English devolves into prose. When speaking in prose, people emphasize fewer syllables than they do in poetry (I make that point in another article on my site). If you are writing poetry that has 12 syllables per line, how many stresses does it have? Well, if it has 2-3 stresses per line, it will sound like prose. It will need at least 4-5 stresses per line to sound like poetry.

Eratosphere has deteriorated since I was involved a decade ago. It used to be a free-wheeling forum of good poets with strong opinions. Now, anapests and trochees strike terror in their hearts; and the administrator is always lurking, ready to close your thread if your poetry isn't rigidly metrical.

Jim714 said...

Thanks for taking the time to comment on my post. It's a treat to get a response on a post from several years ago.

I think your points are well thought out and useful. And I agree that syllabic verse has a tendency to falling into a prose-like sound, or sonic effect. I do think, however, that there are ways around this. And I think these ways are found in the heritage of English language poetry; so I'm not suggesting something very new or radical.

Briefly, I think that there are specific tools that the syllabic poet can use to shape a syllabic line so that it sounds poetic. The most important of these is rhyme. There are others which include 1) grammatical construction, 2) rhetorical devices such as anaphora, etc., 3) coherence and integrity of image.

Syllabic poetry is too new in English for it to have developed a systematic approach. But if you read someone like Richard Wright, whose haiku are syllabic, you can glean how these devices apply and help to keep a syllabic approach in the realm of poetry.

Thanks again for your thoughtful response.

Best wishes,

Jim

Editor said...

I hope you don't mind an additional comment.

The syllabic poetry that I've been reading is yours. It doesn't sound prosaic. "My Alaska" has a lot of nice rhythms in it. However, some of your lines will have a nice rhythm, but then some sound somewhat flat and awkward, and I think that's because you're focussing on the syllable count and not the sounds.

To a certain extent, you seem to be doing what I do: I write what sounds good to me, and then I count the syllables. My lines usually come out to ten syllables. But I like heavy rhythms in my lines, and that means that I usually end up with iambs mixed with variant feet (anapests, trochees, etc.), so that some of my lines scan as 5 feet and some scan as 4 feet – but the rhythm is always there.

The thing about rhythm is this: Like sex (in/out), it is pleasing and natural. "On/off" is the most natural pattern in the universe, so "stressed/unstressed" is also highly natural. It seems to me that counting syllables to give your poetry some regularity is somewhat artificial. But if the sound of heavy rhythm isn't pleasing to you, my comments won't touch you.

As Judson Jerome said, the early free-verse poets wrote heavily rhythmic poetry because they still had the echoes of meter in their head; but for later poets, free-verse degenerated into prose.

One final point: As evidence that English is an accentual language, people generally gravitate to accented words when having intense discussions or arguments. Accent is how intensity is expressed in English.

Jim714 said...

Good Morning:

I don't mind having well thought out comments. I appreciate that you are interested enough to offer an assessment.

Your comments have given me an occasion for thought about my approach; why I take it and what it means for me. Especially your comment about rhythm. I agree that English has accentual features, though we might diverge on how strongly accentual it is. But because of the accentual nature of English, when writing syllabicaly, there will be passages that are, for example, a series of iambics, or a series of anapests. These will flow in and out of the poem. An example of this is the poetry of Elizabeth Daryush. In this manner, I think, syllabic poetry mimics an ordinary feature of English conversation.

But back to rhythm. Usually when I compose poetry, in my mind I have a melody and I am writing to that melody which is in my mind. The words are mapped onto the melody. Sometimes it is a simple chant, sometimes a folk like tune. So that is in the background. And perhaps that effects why I don't feel the ebb and flow of metrical construction to be pivotal in my approach.

I will have to think more about your point about the centrality of metrical, accentual, pulse; about it being definite and strong, in order to achieve a poetic effect. I do agree that contemporary free verse is indistinguishable from prose; in fact I am often baffled as to why a huge amount of it should be called poetry. So that, I think, is a good starting point of agreement between us.

Thanks again, for your input and comments.

Best wishes,

Jim

Jim714 said...

P.S. -- I went over to the Poem Tree site, but I didn't find the Steele analysis, which I would like to read. Where is it placed?

Thanks,

Jim

Editor said...

My site is www.poemtree.com, and my name is Caleb Murdock (Perry is my middle name). Under "Articles" on the upper-left, you'll find "Essays on Poetry", and there are articles by me in there.

Like you, I listen to the music in my head. My problem is that it results in poetry that is very accentual, but not perfectly metrical. It is too rhythmical for free-verse poets, but formalists get bent out of shape by the liberties I take with the meter. One of the reasons I've been posting here is that I tend to count syllables like you. I'll write everything at, say, ten syllables per line, and then I'll worry about the meter later.

Jim714 said...

Good Morning:

Thanks for the guidance regarding the site. I found the article.

I found your observation about taking liberties with meter to relate to some observations I have been making about the earliest sonnet writers. I have been reading a lot of Thomas Wyatt lately; I've always had a fondness for him and I have returned to some of his work I really like. I have noticed that, at times, not always, but at times he has a fluid approach to meter and, at times, to syllable count. For me this is one of the attractive things about his work; it gives some of his poetry a feeling of spontaneity, and a musical feeling as well.

I've listed Poem Tree as a site for others to look at. I look forward to exploring it further. It is quite an undertaking, but one that I think deserves support.

Best wishes,

Jim

Ruhi said...

Hi,
I am happy to see some support for syllabic verse. I am from India but my entire education was in English medium. Needless to say, the way my teachers and I speak English is quite different from what is spoken in Britain. I have been trying to write poetry using metrical forms without much success because I have to adopt a foreign accent (and expect all my readers to adopt one too) while reading it out. It simply ends up sounding forced and fake.
I recently switched to syllabic verse to tackle the problem while retaining structure.

Jim714 said...

Good Morning:

Thanks, Ruhi, for posting. I appreciate hearing about English from a perspective outside of The anglosphere; e.g. Britain and the U.S. and Australia. I live in the Bay Area and have friends who were born in India and speak perfect English. I believe, like you, their education was in English and English is completely natural. I first developed my view that English is changing because of my interactions with these friends.

Using a syllabic approach in English retains the formal nature of the English poetic tradition, but allows for a broader inclusion of the different ways that English is being spoken at this time. I think of that as an advantage because it both honors the English poetic heritage of formal verse while at the same time acknowledging the changed context that the English language currently has.

Thanks again for taking the time to comment.

Best wishes,

Jim

twicebitten said...

Greetings,
Having discovered this site on a search for definitions of free verse vs. syllabic verse, I was impressed with the information presented. I am also quite inspired. My scribblings have a bohemian texture to them as I do not have any formal training. I certainly appreciate the depth in which the material was presented, especially as a blog. I have perused many sites recently and this is, by far, one of the best.
I agree with the comments, from all, regarding whether the structure is one of necessity. I do find the syllabic verse tends to come across as forced, if the meter is not just so. Despite that idiosyncrasy, I prefer a combination of styles and aim for something that "feels" pleasant to say and hear. I have the utmost regard for those writers who are capable of making it seem so easy.
Anyway, I'll close for now. Do not wish to bore anyone into a coma.
Thank you for such an intelligent presentation and I look forward to reading more on this!
Regards,
Michael Coud

Jim714 said...

Thanks, Michael, for taking the time to post a comment. I am, of course, pleased that you find the material at Shaping Words valuable. It is rewarding to get this kind of feedback.

I agree that syllabic verse in English can sound somewhat 'forced'. On the other hand, when skillfully handled, it has a distinctive quality of flow which readers find pleasing. Some of Dylan Thomas's syllabic poems have that sense of flow. And, to my mind, Richard Wright's efforts in Haiku are exemplary.

Thanks again for posting,

Jim

OTP said...

I enjoyed your thoughts on syllabic verse, and the subsequent discussion. Thanks very much for your post.

I’ve been working with syllabic verse for several years now and I find it to be full of rich possibilities. But I only discovered the tradition of syllabic verse in English (such as it is) after applying the method on my own. Counting syllables without regard to stress – or marked/unmarked, ictus/non-ictus if you prefer – just came naturally. I count lines quickly with my thumb on the joints of the fingers of the same hand the same way I learned to do in navigating musical rhythms like 9/8 in Balkan music. It was only later that I discovered Bridges and Daryush, Gunn, etc.

In my subsequent explorations I was puzzled at first by the fact that the article on Meter in The New Princeton Encyclopedia of Poetry and Poetics noted “Syllabic verse […] is esoteric; most metrists deny its existence altogether, arguing that meter is impossible without some kind of pattern.” On reflection I realized this is simply because of the (assumed or traditional) primacy of the spoken word in poetry. The poem as spoken or recited is considered to be the final product or ultimate ‘making’ that the poet is engaged in. This traditional emphasis is understandable. But the primary way I’ve been exposed to poetry is in reading it. And because world cultures rely overwhelmingly on the mnemonic scaffolding of writing for composition, and usually for recitation too, the poem as a verbalized product is now inextricably bound up with its existence as a written product.

I understand the emphasis on poetry as spoken. But how many of us hear poems? Or rather, compared to how often we read them, how often do we recite them, or hear them recited? The measure of a poet’s (social – as distinct from personal) success is in large part tied to written publication, not recitation. And for all that poets still conduct readings before an audience, the number of people who read their poems in silence must still far exceed those who hear them spoken.

So I’d like to add another dimension to this discussion. Syllable counting without (any strictly necessary) attention to stress arguably fails the test of being a true meter from the perspective of the poem as spoken, but when read, it introduces clear and regular breaks that offer all sorts of opportunities for semantic emphasis or rhetorical devices. And even if it is eventually recited, one must first *write* the poem. Furthermore, when reciting it, it is often read – and even if learned by heart it is usually learned by reference to the *written* form. Thus in writing or memorizing the poem prior to recitation the divisions based on syllable counting introduce breaks that will (or at least can) affect how it is understood and therefore how it is recited.

Finally, syllabic verse offers much of the freedom of free verse, while at the same time enforcing a dimension of limit or constraint that drives the poet to explore alternate phrasing to meet the demands of the syllabic structure. This in turn adds a challenging additional layer to the process of composition that can yield very interesting results. I find it useful in bringing to my attention ways in which I use combinations of words out of habit, forcing me to change my syntax in ways that quicken the language.

OTP

Jim714 said...

Thanks for your thoughtful post. A few responses:

Like you I began using a syllabic approach before I knew about people like Daryush, or that there were poets who written about syllabic prosody for English. I was influenced by Richard Wright, and other haiku poets who have taken a syllabic approach. When I discovered the Cinquain, I really began to focus on syllabics.

I think the reason many regard syllabics as 'esoteric' is that some of the most prominent syllabic poets, such as Moore, were also committed modernists. The result, as in Moore, is that the syllabic stanzas she uses are not accessible to the listener, and often not to the reader as well. I have noticed that critiques of syllabics often highlight Mooore in this regard. This led me to an understanding that a syllabic approach in English has to have its own approach to lineation; if syllabics copies the free verse approach it will simply sound, and read, like free verse. Daryush understood this, but I didn't know about her for a long time.

You make an interesting point about the written vs. the spoken poem. I am a big advocate of the use of rhyme in syllabic verse. And rhyme is a sonic experience, so I'm not sure how this would mesh with your comments. I think your point is valid, but I suspect it is complementary rather than antagonistic to poetry as sound.

My feeling about syllabic meter is that syllables are more primary, more central, than meter. If you take a statement like "I love you", depending on the circumstances the meter can vary, but the syllabics will remain the same. Its meter might be 'i LOVE you'; an iamb followed by a weak closing syllable. Or it might be 'i love YOU'; an anapest instantiation. Other configuration are possible. In other words, I see meter as being freely mapped onto syllables. In the reading of a syllabic poem the meter could vary with different readings.

I concur with your conclusion that syllabics incorporates some of the elements of free verse and metrical verse. Syllabic verse is formal, but in a way that differs from metrical verse. That is why I think of it as a 'thrid way'.

Great comments. Thanks for taking the time to post them here.

Jim714 said...

Thanks for your thoughtful post. A few responses:

Like you I began using a syllabic approach before I knew about people like Daryush, or that there were poets who written about syllabic prosody for English. I was influenced by Richard Wright, and other haiku poets who have taken a syllabic approach. When I discovered the Cinquain, I really began to focus on syllabics.

I think the reason many regard syllabics as 'esoteric' is that some of the most prominent syllabic poets, such as Moore, were also committed modernists. The result, as in Moore, is that the syllabic stanzas she uses are not accessible to the listener, and often not to the reader as well. I have noticed that critiques of syllabics often highlight Mooore in this regard. This led me to an understanding that a syllabic approach in English has to have its own approach to lineation; if syllabics copies the free verse approach it will simply sound, and read, like free verse. Daryush understood this, but I didn't know about her for a long time.

You make an interesting point about the written vs. the spoken poem. I am a big advocate of the use of rhyme in syllabic verse. And rhyme is a sonic experience, so I'm not sure how this would mesh with your comments. I think your point is valid, but I suspect it is complementary rather than antagonistic to poetry as sound.

My feeling about syllabic meter is that syllables are more primary, more central, than meter. If you take a statement like "I love you", depending on the circumstances the meter can vary, but the syllabics will remain the same. Its meter might be 'i LOVE you'; an iamb followed by a weak closing syllable. Or it might be 'i love YOU'; an anapest instantiation. Other configuration are possible. In other words, I see meter as being freely mapped onto syllables. In the reading of a syllabic poem the meter could vary with different readings.

I concur with your conclusion that syllabics incorporates some of the elements of free verse and metrical verse. Syllabic verse is formal, but in a way that differs from metrical verse. That is why I think of it as a 'thrid way'.

Great comments. Thanks for taking the time to post them here.

OTP said...

Thanks for your reply.

Glad to hear that someone else approached syllabic verse on their own, based on a sense that it’s more fundamental than meter.

I agree with you completely as regards using rhyme in syllabic verse – as well as alliteration. I think your point about seeing syllabic verse as primary and central is really the key; it can be used as a very flexible structure for a wide range of expression. I’ve often thought about how rhythm orders sonic expressions in time, while geometric patterns order visual expressions in space. I like to think of syllabic verse in the same way: it imposes order on sonic expressions (verbalization) while at the same time ordering the visible expression (the written form). Of course this could be said of traditional meter, but to me syllabic verse is somehow more basic because it allows us to apply number to written and verbal expression in a less arbitrary way; I have in mind here the point you made about uncertainty in word stress.

But moving from theory to practice it’s the ordered formal flexibility that draws me to syllabic verse. Especially in longer poems it provides the ‘common denominator’ that permits one to experiment with different expressions involving rhyme, alliteration and even variable meter without dispensing with an over-arching order. To me it feels (at least for now) like the best balance between traditional emphasis on formal structure without losing the more modern emphasis on avoiding anything that limits the content of the expression.

To illustrate the point I’ve chosen a few stanzas that I composed in the course of creating a longer poem of 36 stanzas. That poem is complete and currently under consideration, so I can’t post it here, but I’ve chosen a few stanzas that didn’t make it into the final version. These are ‘discards’ so I make no claims as to their quality, but they’re sufficient to illustrate how one can exploit the underlying syllabic structure for a wide variety of effects while remaining true to a single formal principle.


16
Only fools imagine the
forgotten past no longer
flogs the nags of the present

The new-minted idol of
today still stands on brittle
feet of black iron and clay

Render therefore unto Caesar


20
In narrow alleys strung with
thick webs of dripping laundry
where insolent banners sag

like a barber's ruddy rags
and bugs and lenses bedeck
columns of all three orders

I pledge allegiance to the flag


23
Halfwit spawn of priests and clerks
ape the past’s mores and motions
like children wearing vast shoes

They speak of health and success
shepherding flesh and estate
with the summons and syringe

Swaddled in the robes of knowledge

Jim714 said...

I enjoyed reading the excerpt of your poem. And I hope it gets accepted for publication. I see what you are doing, I think. It illustrates what you previously wrote about what is on the page versus what one hears sonically. I encourage you to follow through on this direction and see where it leads you.

My own approach to syllabics has gone in a different direction. I am more inclined to have the grammatical structure and the poetic line match. I wrote about this on this blog in a series on syllabic lineation. In my own work I have grown averse, and somewhat distrustful, of run-ons (enjambment). I particularly avoid lines that end in articles (like line 1 ending in 'the'), or prepositions (like line 3 ending in 'of'). My feeling is that these kinds of words are naturally gathered with the words that follow, and I think that is true both for reading and hearing. The primary influence for me on this point is Emily Dickinson and her approach to lineation. I am not an absolutist about this; that is to say I am not inclined to make this an overriding rule. It is possible to mitigate the effect of a run-on through, for example, rhyme. Richard Wilbur is particularly skillful in this regard. I mean only to describe my own process and how it appears to differ from your own.

Best wishes and thanks for posting.